tournament strategy.

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silverfox46
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tournament strategy.

Post: # 17217Post silverfox46
May 6th, 2018, 7:04 am

situation arose l/night, with 3 left in, player A 60k stack playerB 21K stack player C 7k approx, (no names no pack drill), the payout was marginal between pos 4 and pos 3 with a jump to pos 2. Player C shoves all in, player A calls, i have pkt 8s but fold them, my reasoning was if I call and C wins this player gets a triple up,as i folded only a d/up,which still leaves me with a chip advantage over C, as it worked out player A won with pkt 5s, eliminating player C,an 8 hit the flop so would have won if i called without it. I put in chat after game had finished had 88lol, Player C commented should never fold in that position, player A said correct fold under those circumstances,of course player C argued this point, no prizes for guessing identity,views please
P.S. sorry for a poker related post!! :smash:

Theadder4
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17219Post Theadder4
May 6th, 2018, 8:25 am

ime never calling,either shoving all in or folding.calling your just going to get bet of the pot on a later street,if an 8 doesn't hit the board.

Daddymac
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17221Post Daddymac
May 6th, 2018, 9:20 am

Under normal circumstances it's a shove every time pre-flop in the game u are talking against these players I understand the fold calling IMO is terrible unless it's for under 5 x BB.

Need to know blinds before u can say what I would do.

bilthebandit
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17223Post bilthebandit
May 6th, 2018, 9:32 am

Blinds the most important factor here imo if they are 250\500 no real need to get involved if 1k\2k a dif story,this also can dictate how you play the hand .

Call shove or fold?????
Dougies assessment slightly flawed due to tourney state but only in the getting bet off the pot statement as in the majority of times it gets checked down if nobody hits anything.

If you SHOVE big stack is committed and your prob at the races which is ok if you WANT that but he may also be trapping with monster why else did he not shove???

FOLD,is fine if blinds lowish if high 1\2k range I wont fold.

CALL, interesting option and some ppl may hate it therefore at the right time I like it (muckyesque) style haha.

BBMONEY
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17227Post BBMONEY
May 6th, 2018, 9:47 am

not about the blinds for me

if it's massive jump and big money or if it's a tenner would influence me

bilthebandit
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17230Post bilthebandit
May 6th, 2018, 10:05 am

Obv Bill if it was 30 quid for 1st well ya don't give a stuff so lump it in or if ya wanna jam it up a buddies ass also haha.

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richlizard
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17238Post richlizard
May 6th, 2018, 11:01 am

Let's give the hand a little more clarity and perhaps some accuracy that might affect things...

3 handed.

Blinds are in at 1,000 and 2,000

Player A is on the button with almost 90k in chips.
Player B is in the SB with 27k in chips.
Player C is in BB with 4k in chips.

Player A shoves from the button.

Player B looks down at :88: :88: in the small blind and is next to act.

Player C is pretty much dead and buried and likely to call any two from the big blind.

So what do you do in Player B's position?

T8MML
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17241Post T8MML
May 6th, 2018, 11:06 am

In Lizards scenario (which I assume is a different game to Foxy’s ;)) I fold the 88 here but never heads up.

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richlizard
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17246Post richlizard
May 6th, 2018, 11:14 am

T8MML wrote:
May 6th, 2018, 11:06 am
In Lizards scenario (which I assume is a different game to Foxy’s ;)) I fold the 88 here but never heads up.
Above is straight from the hand history mate.

TURBO1
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17263Post TURBO1
May 6th, 2018, 11:49 am

Its a call from me, you have a 3rd of the chip leaders stack, chip leader pushing 90k from the button looks like he or she is keeping the pressure on, if they had an above average hand from that position i’d doubt they shove because they’re looking for a re-raise from the other two.

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richlizard
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17264Post richlizard
May 6th, 2018, 12:10 pm

TURBO1 wrote:
May 6th, 2018, 11:49 am
Its a call from me, you have a 3rd of the chip leaders stack, chip leader pushing 90k from the button looks like he or she is keeping the pressure on, if they had an above average hand from that position i’d doubt they shove because they’re looking for a re-raise from the other two.
Even if the BB only has 2 big blinds left, you would gamble with :88: :88: ??? :o

silverfox46
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17275Post silverfox46
May 6th, 2018, 1:01 pm

richlizard wrote:
May 6th, 2018, 11:01 am
Let's give the hand a little more clarity and perhaps some accuracy that might affect things...

3 handed.

Blinds are in at 1,000 and 2,000

Player A is on the button with almost 90k in chips.
Player B is in the SB with 27k in chips.
Player C is in BB with 4k in chips.

Player A shoves from the button.

Player B looks down at :88: :88: in the small blind and is next to act.

Player C is pretty much dead and buried and likely to call any two from the big blind.

So what do you do in Player B's position?
same hand this is more accurate as my scenario was from memory and i'm an old fart. :bang:

bilthebandit
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17276Post bilthebandit
May 6th, 2018, 1:09 pm

Easy fold every time in Lizards scenario in a serious tourney, most times in semi serious tourney, call in a STT or piss about tourney.

silverfox46
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17289Post silverfox46
May 6th, 2018, 2:11 pm

any tourny serious or f/about my reasoning seemed sound to me, as if player A won, it made no difference if i cal as i get 2nd on chip count,but if i call and player C wins..........a triple up and possible recovery from there, not sure but estimate pot at 14k with blinds, of cause if i call its 18k+ so the dilemma is fold or reshove with 88 with a 33% +33% (if player A wins) chance of success, obviously heads up its a no brainer shove.

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richlizard
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17290Post richlizard
May 6th, 2018, 2:28 pm

Either way Foxy. Your call means you put yourself at risk of coming third when Player C is almost always going to claim that slot.

Imagine if you call. Even :99: :tt: is a race. You lose and Player C somehow manages to get HU because they quite rightly folded to allow you to commit suicide.

Having said that, if Player C here is saying you MUST call in this situation (to play the player!!!), they probably don't understand poker enough to know they MUST fold if you make the call.

silverfox46
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17294Post silverfox46
May 6th, 2018, 2:37 pm

richlizard wrote:
May 6th, 2018, 2:28 pm
Either way Foxy. Your call means you put yourself at risk of coming third when Player C is almost always going to claim that slot.

Imagine if you call. Even :99: :tt: is a race. You lose and Player C somehow manages to get HU because they quite rightly folded to allow you to commit suicide.

Having said that, if Player C here is saying you MUST call in this situation (to play the player!!!), they probably don't understand poker enough to know they MUST fold if you make the call.
spot on! :clap: :clap: :clap:

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Ladymuck
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17351Post Ladymuck
May 7th, 2018, 1:50 am

Sorry to disturb, but just gotta answer this ....

If I was 3 handed on Stars at the end of a tournament then everything said here is fact and a fold from player B. (foxy)

But here it is a no brainer call for me.

Look at it my way for one minute.....

Player A (Lizard) knows exactly what he has written here should be the scenario, but knowing this is why I am calling as player B.

His bet way overboard (in fact in my memory was over 100k all in) it was screaming a low hand and I was thinking 33 44 but whatever. Had he high cards I believe he would have played it a lot differently.

But let's just say it played the other way.... Foxy calls, yes it is my duty to fold,right? For me 88 against a desperate shove basically HU is a no brainer, At very little risk. If you read what Lizard had to do then you have to reply, if you get it. I got it and knew Foxy's was a call. so much so I called when foxy didn't knowing I had 2 over cards that just didn't hit.

Foxy is on about the 8 hitting the flop but it didn't even have to.

If he is admitting to just wanting 2nd then fair play.

But then let's look at that too. If foxy and I both called (and there was a good chance of that if I too wanted to win as i would have been on for a treble up with any decent 2 cards) and Lizard took us both out, Foxy would still have got 2nd. And if he called there were 2 chances of taking me out but also a chance for Foxy to narrow the huge gap between him and lizard for a decent HU. Instead of just giving him mine too. And obviously he risked Lizard doubling me up. Which in turn weakened his chance of second. My stack making not too much odds to Lizards but that pot had I won would bring me back into the game.

Book play is correct if you do not know who, what, where, why. I knew the players I knew the score I knew the level of risk.

I am the biggest folder (well foxy may take that crown these days) but in this scenario I am calling as B every day of the week and twice on Sundays. I am playing the player, as Lizard did the situation. And rightly so.

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richlizard
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17352Post richlizard
May 7th, 2018, 8:23 am

Well I think that sums up your thought process quite well.

Very good call with K7 KNOWING you had two overcards and with TWO big blinds left.

Quality. Serious quality.

Daddymac
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17353Post Daddymac
May 7th, 2018, 8:31 am

should have folded and waited mucky you mad gambler😂

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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17359Post Ladymuck
May 7th, 2018, 10:54 am

Daddymac wrote:
May 7th, 2018, 8:31 am
should have folded and waited mucky you mad gambler😂
Just so you know, this is going to keep me laughing the whole day. I nearly wet myself when I read it :lol: :lol: :lol:


But actually I can fold in these situations and I have done many a time. My speciality is coming back from the dead (even Lizard will know that, one of the things he ACTUALLY knows about me)

I have said it here many times I do not do the "how many BBs left" game. I will fight until the last chip. But knowing (roughly) his hand I went for it.

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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17361Post Ladymuck
May 7th, 2018, 11:04 am

richlizard wrote:
May 7th, 2018, 8:23 am
Well I think that sums up your thought process quite well.

Very good call with K7 KNOWING you had two overcards and with TWO big blinds left.

Quality. Serious quality.
Whatever you think of my thought process or how I come to it is neither here nor there. As long as it is correct I am not bothered what anyone thinks. I speak from the heart and have the guts to put it out there.

I actually do not remember K7 but if you say so. I do not hold on to past hands in my head. That was then and this is now. But whatever way it reads I am calling you here every time.

I noticed you did the same last night in your twitch with 78 off on the button, It is a good move and works well for you, they folded. But then again I wasn't at the table was I.

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richlizard
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17362Post richlizard
May 7th, 2018, 11:07 am

Ladymuck wrote:
May 7th, 2018, 10:54 am

But actually I can fold in these situations and I have done many a time. My speciality is coming back from the dead (even Lizard will know that, one of the things he ACTUALLY knows about me)
I can confirm you often dribble away to nothing and somehow manage to hit cards to come back. Not sure it is an optimum strategy but if it makes you a living...

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richlizard
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17363Post richlizard
May 7th, 2018, 11:08 am

Ladymuck wrote:
May 7th, 2018, 10:54 am

I have said it here many times I do not do the "how many BBs left" game. I will fight until the last chip. But knowing (roughly) his hand I went for it.
So with my shove from the button knowing you are on 2 big blinds and Foxy would be risking his guaranteed HU position... your range evaluation for me is a small pair (because I had one)? You really are a mindreader.

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richlizard
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17364Post richlizard
May 7th, 2018, 11:10 am

Ladymuck wrote:
May 7th, 2018, 11:04 am

I actually do not remember K7 but if you say so. I do not hold on to past hands in my head. That was then and this is now. But whatever way it reads I am calling you here every time.
And it would be a MASSIVE mistake to fold with 2 big blinds left. It is not heroic to make that call.

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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17365Post Ladymuck
May 7th, 2018, 11:16 am

richlizard wrote:
May 7th, 2018, 11:08 am
Ladymuck wrote:
May 7th, 2018, 10:54 am

I have said it here many times I do not do the "how many BBs left" game. I will fight until the last chip. But knowing (roughly) his hand I went for it.
So with my shove from the button knowing you are on 2 big blinds and Foxy would be risking his guaranteed HU position... your range evaluation for me is a small pair (because I had one)? You really are a mindreader.
I think you will find I said 'low hand' but gave 33 44 as an example, you would have done the same with low connectors I am sure. And no one needs to be a mind reader your bet screamed it out loud to me.

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Ladymuck
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17366Post Ladymuck
May 7th, 2018, 11:25 am

richlizard wrote:
May 7th, 2018, 11:10 am
Ladymuck wrote:
May 7th, 2018, 11:04 am

I actually do not remember K7 but if you say so. I do not hold on to past hands in my head. That was then and this is now. But whatever way it reads I am calling you here every time.
And it would be a MASSIVE mistake to fold with 2 big blinds left. It is not heroic to make that call.
No one said it was heroic. And you, your book and probably many other with the 'you can not for that many BBs' mentality will think its a MASSIVE mistake. I just do not play that way as I said above. And it serves me well. I aint complaining. But it isn't for everyone. And I really would not expect it to be.

I can tell you one of my best friends a multi millionaire pro would be of the same mindset (which if I am honest quite surprised me when I read it, as we never speak of poker only if we are are on a good or bad cycle) So you can actually make a great living doing it. Maybe you should try it?

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Ladymuck
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17367Post Ladymuck
May 7th, 2018, 11:27 am

richlizard wrote:
May 7th, 2018, 11:07 am
Ladymuck wrote:
May 7th, 2018, 10:54 am

But actually I can fold in these situations and I have done many a time. My speciality is coming back from the dead (even Lizard will know that, one of the things he ACTUALLY knows about me)
I can confirm you often dribble away to nothing and somehow manage to hit cards to come back. Not sure it is an optimum strategy but if it makes you a living...
Ha! You do know flattery will get you everywhere.

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richlizard
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17368Post richlizard
May 7th, 2018, 11:27 am

Ladymuck wrote:
May 7th, 2018, 11:16 am
richlizard wrote:
May 7th, 2018, 11:08 am
Ladymuck wrote:
May 7th, 2018, 10:54 am

I have said it here many times I do not do the "how many BBs left" game. I will fight until the last chip. But knowing (roughly) his hand I went for it.
So with my shove from the button knowing you are on 2 big blinds and Foxy would be risking his guaranteed HU position... your range evaluation for me is a small pair (because I had one)? You really are a mindreader.
I think you will find I said 'low hand' but gave 33 44 as an example, you would have done the same with low connectors I am sure. And no one needs to be a mind reader your bet screamed it out loud to me.
Interesting you give 33 or 44 but not my actual hand of 55. Is that to make your wild afterthought guess more feasible?

The amount of times I have had to explain to total novices that it is near on impossible to 'put someone on' a hand based on one piece of action. But you did very well guessing 33 or 44... but not 55. Amazing reading skills.

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Ladymuck
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17369Post Ladymuck
May 7th, 2018, 11:34 am

richlizard wrote:
May 7th, 2018, 11:27 am
Ladymuck wrote:
May 7th, 2018, 11:16 am
richlizard wrote:
May 7th, 2018, 11:08 am


So with my shove from the button knowing you are on 2 big blinds and Foxy would be risking his guaranteed HU position... your range evaluation for me is a small pair (because I had one)? You really are a mindreader.
I think you will find I said 'low hand' but gave 33 44 as an example, you would have done the same with low connectors I am sure. And no one needs to be a mind reader your bet screamed it out loud to me.
Interesting you give 33 or 44 but not my actual hand of 55. Is that to make your wild afterthought guess more feasible?

The amount of times I have had to explain to total novices that it is near on impossible to 'put someone on' a hand based on one piece of action. But you did very well guessing 33 or 44... but not 55. Amazing reading skills.
Well maybe that is because 55 did not actually cross my mind at the time. I am just trying to be honest, not perfect. I thought low hand. 33 44 pops in but so does other low card scenarios, connectors suited connectors but 55 not so much in all honesty. I possibly had a highest in mind but that's about it. and that would have been around the 7 mark.

Enough to warrant a call.

TURBO1
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Re: tournament strategy.

Post: # 17371Post TURBO1
May 7th, 2018, 12:03 pm

richlizard wrote:
May 6th, 2018, 12:10 pm
TURBO1 wrote:
May 6th, 2018, 11:49 am
Its a call from me, you have a 3rd of the chip leaders stack, chip leader pushing 90k from the button looks like he or she is keeping the pressure on, if they had an above average hand from that position i’d doubt they shove because they’re looking for a re-raise from the other two.
Even if the BB only has 2 big blinds left, you would gamble with :88: :88: ??? :o
Sure, but then you also have to take into account your gut feeling :thumb:

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